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Talk:COVID-19 lab leak theory


Origins of COVID-19: Current consensus

  1. There is no consensus on whether the lab leak theory is a "conspiracy theory" or a "minority scientific viewpoint". (RfC, February 2021)
  2. There is consensus against defining "disease and pandemic origins" (broadly speaking) as a form of biomedical information for the purpose of WP:MEDRS. However, information that already fits into biomedical information remains classified as such, even if it relates to disease and pandemic origins (e.g. genome sequences, symptom descriptions, phylogenetic trees). (RfC, May 2021)
  3. In multiple prior non-RFC discussions about manuscripts authored by Rossana Segreto and/or Yuri Deigin, editors have found the sources to be unreliable. Specifically, editors were not convinced by the credentials of the authors, and concerns were raised with the editorial oversight of the BioEssays "Problems & Paradigms" series. (Jan 2021, Jan 2021, Jan 2021, Feb 2021, June 2021, ...)
  4. The consensus of scientists is that SARS-CoV-2 is likely of zoonotic origin. (January 2021, May 2021, May 2021, May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, WP:NOLABLEAK (frequently cited in discussions))
  5. The March 2021 WHO report on the origins of SARS-CoV-2 should be referred to as the "WHO-convened report" or "WHO-convened study" on first usage in article prose, and may be abbreviated as "WHO report" or "WHO study" thereafter. (RfC, June 2021)
  6. The "manufactured bioweapon" idea should be described as a "conspiracy theory" in wiki-voice. (January 2021, February 2021, May 2021, May 2021, June 2021, June 2021, June 2021, June 2021, July 2021, July 2021, July 2021, August 2021)
  7. The scientific consensus (and the Frutos et al. sources ([1][2]) which support it), which dismisses the lab leak, should not be described as "based in part on Shi [Zhengli]'s emailed answers." (RfC, December 2021)
  8. The American FBI and Department of Energy finding that a lab leak was likely should not be mentioned in the lead of COVID-19 lab leak theory, because it is WP:UNDUE. (RFC, October 2023)
  9. The article COVID-19 lab leak theory may not go through the requested moves process between 4 March 2024 and 3 March 2025. (RM, March 2024)

Last updated (diff) on 15 March 2024 by Novem Linguae (t · c)


Lab leak theory sources

List of good sources with good coverage to help expand. Not necessarily for inclusion but just for consideration. Preferably not articles that just discuss a single quote/press conference. The long-style reporting would be even better. Feel free to edit directly to add to the list. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 17:39, 18 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Last updated by Julian Brown (talk) 23:43, 12 November 2023 (UTC) [reply]

[edit]  ·
Scholarship
For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:SCHOLARSHIP. For a database curated by the NCBI, see LitCoVID
[edit]  ·
Journalism
For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:NEWSORG.
[edit]  ·
Opinion-based editorials written by scientists/scholars
For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:RSOPINION.
[edit]  ·
Opinion-based editorials written by journalists
For the relevant sourcing guideline, see WP:RSOPINION.
[edit]  ·
Government and policy
Keep in mind, these are primary sources and thus should be used with caution!

References

The current version of article contains a phrase: "There is no evidence that any genetic manipulation or reverse genetics (a technique required to make chimeric viruses) of SARS-related bat coronaviruses was ever carried out at the WIV."

It is FALSE. There is (at least one) publicly available paper which proves the contrary.

https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.ppat.1006698 is an article from 2017 with (among others) authored by Daszak and Zheng-Li Shi (the head of the WIV). "Discovery of a rich gene pool of bat SARS-related coronaviruses provides new insights into the origin of SARS coronavirus".

It contains this passage:

"Construction of recombinant viruses

Recombinant viruses with the S gene of the novel bat SARSr-CoVs and the backbone of the infectious clone of SARSr-CoV WIV1 were constructed using the reverse genetic system described previously [23] (S9 Fig). The fragments E and F were re-amplified with primer pairs (FE, 5’-AGGGCCCACCTGGCACTGGTAAGAGTCATTTTGC-3’, R-EsBsaI, 5’-ACTGGTCTCTTCGTTTAGTTATTAACTAAAATATCACTAGACACC-3’) and (F-FsBsaI, 5’-TGAGGTCTCCGAACTTATGGATTTGTTTATGAG-3’, RF, 5’-AGGTAGGCCTCTAGGGCAGCTAAC-3’), respectively. The products were named as fragment Es and Fs, which leave the spike gene coding region as an independent fragment. BsaI sites (5’-GGTCTCN|NNNN-3’) were introduced into the 3’ terminal of the Es fragment and the 5’ terminal of the Fs fragment, respectively. The spike sequence of Rs4231 was amplified with the primer pair (F-Rs4231-BsmBI, 5’-AGTCGTCTCAACGAACATGTTTATTTTCTTATTCTTTCTCACTCTCAC-3’ and R-Rs4231-BsmBI, 5’-TCACGTCTCAGTTCGTTTATGTGTAATGTAATTTGACACCCTTG-3’). The S gene sequence of Rs7327 was amplified with primer pair (F-Rs7327-BsaI, 5’-AGTGGTCTCAACGAACATGAAATTGTTAGTTTTAGTTTTTGCTAC-3’ and R-Rs7327-BsaI, 5’- TCAGGTCTCAGTTCGTTTATGTGTAATGTAATTTAACACCCTTG-3’). The fragment Es and Fs were both digested with BglI (NEB) and BsaI (NEB). The Rs4231 S gene was digested with BsmBI. The Rs7327 S gene was digested with BsaI. The other fragments and bacterial artificial chromosome (BAC) were prepared as described previously. Then the two prepared spike DNA fragments were separately inserted into BAC with Es, Fs and other fragments. The correct infectious BAC clones were screened. The chimeric viruses were rescued as described previously [23]."

^^^^ This is exactly "genetic manipulation of SARS-related bat coronaviruses". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.165.236.120 (talk • contribs)

SARS-CoV-2 is Potentially a Bioweapon

Why have you added a link to the COVID-19 lab leak theory page pointing to Bioweapons as a conspiracy theory? This is the same denialist approach taken in the early days of the outbreak when any discussion of a lab origin was called a ‘conspiracy theory’. The fact is that there is no public information that conclusively proves any of the origin theories—natural, lab leak, or bioweapon—and worse, there is no effort to conduct an independent forensic investigation to find the truth. China and the US have deliberately politicized the issue, precluding any possibility that they will cooperate in an investigation, even though they have spent the last 20 years working together, searching for and experimenting with these pathogens. The Intelligence community states it does NOT know when or how SARS-CoV-2 started. Yet you proclaim without any basis that the suggestion that it is a bioweapon is a conspiracy theory? There is a well-documented conspiracy between the virologist community and the governments of the US and China to make the public believe the pandemic was an act of God (of natural origin) and that no humans are responsible for the deaths of possibly over 40 million people. These parties have worked to prevent any independent, comprehensive investigation and to limit the WHO’s investigation. Yet you do not call these efforts a conspiracy. By stating that any suggestion that the virus may be a bioweapon is a conspiracy theory, you do a disservice to your readers. The publicly available evidence supporting the development and release of SARS CoV-2 as a bioweapon is at least as compelling as any offered in support of any other options. Disparaging this possibility does not lead to truth. It only tries to smear and denigrate it as an alternative explanation which has as much and possibly more evidence to support it, than the alternative theories. Jamescjiii (talk) 20:28, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because no one has provided any real evidance it was. Slatersteven (talk) 20:32, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wik.ipedia.Pro is based upon reliable secondary sources. You have not provided any. O3000, Ret. (talk) 21:13, 18 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 October 2024

Under "Intelligence agencies" Paragraph 4 quoted as:

"In June 2023, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence declassified their report on the virus' origins, in compliance with an Act of Congress compelling it to do so.[174] The report stated that while the lab leak theory could not be ruled out, the overall assessment of the National Intelligence Council and a majority of IC assets (with low confidence) was that the pandemic most likely began as a zoonotic event.[175][176] No evidence was found that SARS-CoV-2 or a progenitor virus existed in a laboratory, and there was no evidence of any biosafety incident.[17] Proponents of the lab leak hypothesis reacted by accusing the agencies of conspiring with the Chinese, or of being incompetent.[17] Covering the story for the Sydney Morning Herald, its science reporter Liam Mannix wrote that the US report marked the end of the lab leak case, and that it had ended "not with a bang, but a whimper".[17][176]"

Please change to:

"In June 2023, the Office of the Director of National Intelligence declassified their report[1] on the origins of COVID-19, in accordance with an Act of Congress. The report outlined two plausible hypotheses for the virus' origin: natural zoonotic spillover or a lab-related incident. Four intelligence elements and the National Intelligence Council assessed with low confidence that a natural spillover was more likely, while one agency leaned towards a laboratory incident with moderate confidence. The report acknowledged gaps in evidence and noted China's non-cooperation in further clarifying the virus' origins."

Reason: The original did not have the source of the report and did not fully capture the report's details. 97.91.54.115 (talk) 22:51, 22 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd sure like to link to the various ODNI document (4 total i think?) if they aren't already, but if i recall the June 2023 was the last (source says 4 pages), isn't this the first? (2 pages) fiveby(zero) 00:02, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As far as I can find on their site:
August 2021 https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Declassified-Assessment-on-COVID-19-Origins.pdf
June 2023 https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Report-on-Potential-Links-Between-the-Wuhan-Institute-of-Virology-and-the-Origins-of-COVID-19-20230623.pdf
and the latest one - https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Unclassified-Summary-of-Assessment-on-COVID-19-Origins.pdf
I can't find anything related to another report that is declassified. 97.91.54.115 (talk) 01:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.dni.gov/files/ODNI/documents/assessments/Unclassified-Summary-of-Assessment-on-COVID-19-Origins.pdf
Incorrect. Without the source, the original does not have adequate information and is misleading to the document source. 97.91.54.115 (talk) 13:21, 23 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If Donald Trump wins the US election

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/31520401/wuhan-lab-leak-trump-election/

  • Classified intelligence on the origins of Covid may finally be released if Donald Trump wins the US election, America's top virologist has said.
  • Dr Redfield said: "We can actually have a real investigation with subpoena power."
  • "I haven't seen really much interest from the current administration - especially when you did a 90-day commission that had virtually no answers and wasn't done very scientifically."

2600:8804:6600:4:112C:6924:5E1D:6D4D (talk) 16:05, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Very much a case of lets wait and see. Slatersteven (talk) 16:13, 7 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Trump’s return raises concerns about funding cuts and politicization at the NIH

For consideration to be included under the Polication, academic and media attention section. 2600:8804:6600:4:757D:D3AF:6C59:A5C6 (talk) 22:55, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any connection to the purpose of this page, the improvement of the article? --Hob Gadling (talk) 22:18, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Paul: ‘Hopeful’ RFK Jr. Will Have a ‘Big Influence’ in the Incoming Trump Administration

  • “We’re very hopeful that whoever will be head of Health and Human Services will now reveal the documents I’ve been trying to get for three years.”
  • “NIH and HHS have refused to turn over the documents as to why Wuhan got this research money and why it wasn’t screened as dangerous research,” the Kentucky lawmaker added. “Those documents exist and they won’t give them to me. I think a friendly Trump administration will. I’m looking forward to getting those, mainly because we need to try to make sure this doesn’t happen again.”

2600:8804:6600:4:757D:D3AF:6C59:A5C6 (talk) 22:53, 8 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is an encyclopedia. Can't imagine why we would use Robert R. Redfield or RFK Jr. as sources. In any case, we do not have a WP:CRYSTALBALL and shouldn't pretend that we do. We document what has happened, not what might happen.
O3000, Ret. (talk) 01:21, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wik.ipedia.Pro routinely users quotes in articles... 184.182.203.105 (talk) 03:53, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Crystalballing, we do not yet know what Trump or RFK will do. Weh they do it we might be able to include it (taking into account wp:undue). |Slatersteven (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Major biomedical funder NIH poised for massive reform under Trump 2.0

The COVID-19 Lab Leak Hypothesis is a Minority Scientific Viewpoint

The lab leak hypothesis, which suggests that the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic may have originated in a laboratory-related incident, remains a minority viewpoint within the scientific community. While the prevailing consensus points to a natural, zoonotic origin for the virus, several experts continue to argue that the lab leak hypothesis is plausible based on correlative evidence and circumstantial factors. For instance, Richard Ebright, a prominent microbiologist, maintains that molecular data over time strengthens the likelihood of a lab leak, pointing to an evolving understanding of the virus’s genetic sequence.[1]

Most virologists say that a lab-leak origin is possible. For example, former National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases Director Dr. Anthony Fauci said he has always been open to the lab leak hypothesis. In testimony before the House Select Committee on the Coronavirus, Fauci stated, “It is inconceivable that anyone who reads this e-mail could conclude that I was trying to cover up the possibility of a laboratory leak”.[2]

All agencies within the US Intelligence Community (IC) continue to assess that both a natural and laboratory-associated origin remain plausible hypotheses to explain the first human infection.[3] The White House has stated there is no consensus within the U.S. government on the virus's origin.[4]

Four IC elements and the National Intelligence Council assess with low confidence that the initial SARS-CoV-2 infection was most likely caused by natural exposure to an animal infected with it or a close progenitor virus.[5][6] 2601:3C4:4300:9A0:F5F6:8F3C:5B24:BA31 (talk) 08:41, 12 November 2024 (UTC) Lardlegwarmers (talk) 04:04, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ BMJ (September 9, 2024). "Will we ever know where covid-19 came from?". BMJ. 386 (q1578). doi:10.1136/bmj.q1578.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)
  2. ^ Max Kozlov, Lauren Wolf (June 3, 2024). "Fauci Calls COVID Cover-Up Claim 'Preposterous'". Scientific American. Retrieved 2024-11-12.
  3. ^ "Potential Links Between the Wuhan Institute of Virology and the Origin of the Covid-19 Pandemic" (PDF). Office of the Director of National Intelligence. June 2023. Retrieved 2024-11-12.
  4. ^ "Still no consensus on Covid's origins, White House says". Politico. 2023-02-27. Retrieved 2024-11-12.
  5. ^ "Unclassified Summary of Assessment on COVID-19 Origins" (PDF). Office of the Director of National Intelligence. 2023-02-28. Retrieved 2024-11-12.
  6. ^ "Assessment Covid-19 leaked from Chinese lab is a minority view within US intel community, sources say". CNN. 2023-02-28. Retrieved 2024-11-12.
What's this? An example of how not to follow the WP:BESTSOURCES, and so swerve WP:NPOV? Bon courage (talk) 04:09, 13 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 November 2024

I believe this page has been compromised by China, and needs upgraded protection. The Lab Leak has gained significant revisiting, and now seems to be the 50/50 thought. Just click “covid lab leak news” and multiple, credit newspapers are saying it came from a lab. I suggest updating this page to reflect reality, and to present it in a significantly less biased manner. It’s concerning. 2605:8D80:502:6E1E:AC2C:CA8F:93F3:25FD (talk) 00:53, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a and provide a reliable source if appropriate. --AntiDionysius (talk) 00:57, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Change the consensus to “lab leak theory is a minority scientific viewpoint” as opposed to a conspiracy theory. There has been ample material provided by credible sources to support this change. 2601:3C4:4300:9A0:F4EB:4C2F:5A64:890D (talk) 08:22, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
New York Times. “Why the Pandemic Probably Started in a Lab, in 5 Key Points”
By Alina Chan
Dr. Chan is a molecular biologist at the Broad Institute of M.I.T. and Harvard, and a co-author of “Viral: The Search for the Origin of Covid-19.” 2601:3C4:4300:9A0:F4EB:4C2F:5A64:890D (talk) 08:26, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
China actually pushes lab leak ideas, in their "Americans did it" flavor. Those are just as baseless as the "Chinese did it" ones. --Hob Gadling (talk) 08:20, 15 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 November 2024

Propose adding in the lead paragraph:

Although investigation and debate into the origins of the pandemic are ongoing, and the majority of scientists support the zoonotic origin hypothesis, a small minority of scientists, as well as all of the agencies in the United States Intelligence Community, have suggested that the laboratory leak hypothesis is at least plausible and warrants further consideration.[1][2][3] [4][5][6] Although there is no conclusive proof, significant circumstantial evidence suggests that the initial COVID-19 outbreak may have originated in a laboratory. [7] However, most of the evidence suggests that the SARS-CoV-2 virus was originally harbored by bats, and spread to humans from infected wild animals, functioning as an intermediate host, at the Huanan Seafood Market in Wuhan, Hubei, China, in December 2019. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 05:09, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done No consensus for the WP:PROFRINGE effort. Bon courage (talk) 07:50, 16 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A Talk:Fringe theory is defined as:
“Fringe theories in a nutshell: To maintain a neutral point of view, an idea that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea. More extensive treatment should be reserved for an article about the idea, which must meet the test of notability. Additionally, in an article about the minority viewpoint itself, the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints must be made clear.”
The statement, in an article about the idea that “a small minority of scientists and the intelligence community consider the lab leak hypothesis to be at least plausible” is not giving “undue weight in an article about a mainstream idea.” and does make clear “the proper contextual relationship between minority and majority viewpoints”
1) COVID-19 lab leak theory is “an article about the idea” itself,
2) The topic meets the test of Notability in the English Wik.ipedia.Pro
3) The statement “a small minority of scientists and the intelligence community consider the lab leak hypothesis to be at least plausible” is well supported by the cited references, and;
4) It clarifies the proper contextual relationship between majority and minority viewpoints.
5) The editors proposing these changes are not Wik.ipedia.Pro:PROFRINGE. The editors proposing these changes are not “the inventors or promoters of that theory”. The lab leak hypothesis is considered to be plausible by a minority of scientists and by the US Intelligence Community. Whereas, the editors proposing these changes are simply trying to improve Wik.ipedia.Pro by correcting the article to include this information, which has been already published in the aforementioned reputable sources. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 17:10, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again,  Not done. Consensus for inclusion should be established before making an edit request, and that clearly has not happened here. - MrOllie (talk) 17:32, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OK, to all the editors with a position on this proposed edit: please provide your reasons for supporting or proposing the edit. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 19:37, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Opposed - This gives undue prominence to a fringe viewpoint. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 18:09, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:UNDUE is defined as: “Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views.”
1)) WP:UNDUE would apply to a proposed edit to the main article (Origin of SARS-CoV-2) that presented the lab leak hypothesis as if it had equal support to the zoonotic hypothesis amongst virologists in the peer-reviewed literature. This is not the focus of the proposed edit. “In articles specifically relating to a minority viewpoint, such views may receive more attention and space.”
2) The COVID-19 lab leak theory article is “an article about those specific views”. In particular, it is an article about a Hypothesis (a proposed explanation) that a minority of scientists and all of the US intelligence community consider to be plausible (likely to be true, but not necessarily true).
3) It is appropriate that the article about the idea itself should be clear about the relative weight and support for the idea, and “describe these ideas in their proper context” (see: Wik.ipedia.Pro:neutral point of view#Giving "equal validity" can create a false balance) namely, that the idea is a hypothesis, supported by a small minority of scientists, and considered at least plausible by all of the US Intelligence Community. This claim is extensively supported by reliable references here. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 20:08, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Not sure why that would need to be added. Looks to me that info is already present in the intro. At best that just seems completely redundant. --McSly (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is not true. Any information this article has on the reputable sources that have endorsed the position, and the evidence for it is either missing or buried under copious counterarguments, accusations of being either a total “conspiracy theory””, “misplaced”, or, alternatively, having some ground in science, but not supported by any evidence, or else scant evidence. Nowhere in the first paragraph is there mention that it is a minority scientific hypothesis, nor of the intelligence community’s assessment that all of the US agencies are open to the view, nor of any evidence to support the view whatsoever. The first paragraph contains: one sentence that defines “the lab leak theory”, one sentence that states that the lab leak theory is controversial and describes the majority scientific view about the Origin of SARS-CoV-2, two more sentences that articulate the majority scientific view (zoonotic origin), and a sentence describing two items of evidence against the lab leak. Propose that we clarify further up in the lead that this is a hypothesis that has been endorsed by legitimate scientists and that the IC community assessed that it is plausible, and at least mention some of the circumstantial evidence for the theory. Lardlegwarmers (talk) 02:59, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What you've described is called neutrality. Your proposal would WP:GEVAL it. There are plenty of high-quality sources on this topic, as cited by this article. Alina Chan's writings (good grief) are not among them. Bon courage (talk) 04:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "'Lab-leak' and natural origin proponents face off—civilly—in forum on pandemic origins". www.science.org.
  2. ^ Karel, Daniel (9 October 2021). ""Lab leak" or natural spillover? Leading scientists debate COVID-19 origins". Salon. Retrieved 24 November 2021.
  3. ^ "The Mysterious Case of the COVID-19 Lab-Leak Theory". The New Yorker. 12 October 2021. Retrieved 24 November 2021.
  4. ^ "Why the Pandemic Probably Started in a Lab, in 5 Key Points", The New York Times, 3 June 2024
  5. ^ "Former CDC director believes coronavirus came from lab in China". CNN Video. 26 March 2021. Archived from the original on 25 July 2021. Retrieved 2 August 2021.
  6. ^ "Unclassified Summary of Assessment on COVID-19 Origins" (PDF). Office of the Director of National Intelligence. All agencies assess that two hypotheses are plausible: natural exposure to an infected animal and a laboratory-associated incident
  7. ^ Chan, Alina. "Why the Pandemic Probably Started in a Lab, in 5 Key Points". New York Times.
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